CCTV Channel 9 interview:

The Jewish Influence in America

中央电视台九频道访谈

犹太人对美国的影响

People present at the interview：

Y: Yang Rui, Presenter of Dialogue on CCTV 9

J: Jack Rosen,President, AmericanJewish Congress

H: Harley Lippman,founder and CEO,Genesis

参与者:

杨瑞（音译），中央电视台九频道节目主持人，以下简称Y

杰克－罗森，美国犹太人委员会主席，以下简称J

哈利－黎波曼，美国创世纪公司的创始人和董事长，以下简称H

Y: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said last October, "Don't worry about American pressures on Israel, because we Jewish people control America." Is this true, Jack?

杨： 以色列总理阿里埃勒-沙龙去年十月份说：“不要担心美国给以色列的压力，因为我们犹太人控制着美国。”此话是真的吗，杰克？

J: No, we don't control America. We advocate on behalf of Jews in America and we advocate on behalf of Israel. We have historically been on the right side of many issues we advocate since WWII We were on the right side in response to Nazi Germany. We were on the right side of the creation of the state of Israel. We were on the right side of promoting and fighting for civil rights, religious freedom and for rights of all minorities in America through the 60s, the 70s and the 80s. And I think it's the result of being on the right side, being engaged in the issues we have had a great deal of influence on.　

J：不是的。我们没有控制美国。我们只是为美国的犹太人和以色列辩护。二战以后在很多问题上我们的主张历来是正确的：我们对德国纳粹的反应是正确的，对以色列复国的支持是正确的，在六十年代、七十年代和八十年代我们对民权、宗教自由、美国少数民族权益的宣传和奋斗是正确的。我认为犹太人在美国的影响之所以被看重是因为我们在过去的事件中一直是站在正确的立场上的。

Y: Other than your strong sense of justice in many areas you've mentioned, do you think the most important factor behind your influence could be... money? Financial power?　

杨：除了您刚才提到的那多方面的正义感之外，您是不是认为犹太人在美国的影响是因为他们的…比如说钱啊，经济实力的原因呢？　

H: I think you can make an analogy with Chinese communities around the world. I think Chinese people and Jewish people have a lot in common. They both emphasize education, family value, history, ancestors and an attachment to land. Also, they are entrepreneurial. They are hardworking. So when that happens, people get jealous.　　

H：我想你可以拿世界上的华人团体作比较。我认为犹太人和中国人有很多共同点，都强调教育、家庭的价值、历史、尊祖和固守土地。同样，这两个民族都有生意头脑，吃苦耐劳。如此一来引起了其他民族的妒嫉。　

Y: Are those values that you cherish so much the main reason behind the success of the Jewish people, particularly in America?

杨：这些备受您称赞的价值观是否是犹太人，特别是美国犹太人成功的主要原因？

H: Absolutely! Family value, hardworking, and education.　

H：当然了！家庭、勤奋和教育。

Y: Why did William Fulbright say Israel could choose the US Senate?

杨：为什么威廉-富布赖特说以色列可以选择美国的参议院？（William Fulbright:威廉-富布赖特(1905-1995)，美国政治家，曾任美国参议院外交关系委员会主席）

J: Jews, as well as other minorities, exercise their constitutional rights in America and have the ability to advocate on their behalf. One of those ways is to advocate in the US Senate, Congress and US administrations. And we do contribute a lot of money in the political process. I don't think we do that because we are necessarily wealthier than other communities. I think we are engaged maybe more than other communities. And in doing so, we get our messages across. And you find that many minority communities, including the Chinese community in America are doing exactly that today.　　

J：犹太人，以及其他少数民族，可以使用美国宪法赋予他们的权力去为自己争取利益。其中一项就是到美国上下两院以及国家行政部门去为自己争取权益。我们犹太人的确在这政治过程中捐助了很多钱，但我们捐钱并不是自以为比其他团体更有钱，而是我们可能比其他团体更热心于介入。因为我们的参与，我们的观点相应地得到了表达。可以看到，现在美国有很多少数民族在做我们同样的工作，包括美国的华人团体。

Y: The Chinese community doesn't have as strong a voice in the Congress as the Jewish people, though. That's a pity.　　

杨：美国华人团体在美国国会中没有象犹太人那样有很大的影响力，很可惜。

H: I just think that the Jewish people have a lot more in common with the Chinese people, in fact, perhaps more than with any other people in the world. Chinese and Jews are the only two peoples that have the longest and most continual history. And both have suffered a great deal. China suffered a great deal in WWII. Millions of Chinese lost their lives to the Japanese and Jews lost 6 million people to the Germans. Because of that suffering and because Jews were victims, many Jews in America are active politically, to ensure that another holocaust does not occur to Israel or to the Jewish people. In that spirit, Jews, like Chinese, also promote tolerance. You know one of the things I've known about my trip to China here is that, of all the countries I've been to in the world, China is the only country that has no history of anti-Semitism, which is remarkable, and which is extremely impressive to us Jews, because we don't see that in many countries, particularly in Europe. 　　

H：我认为犹太人和中国人有很多相似之处，事实上，比与世界上其他民族相同的大概要多得多。中国人和犹太人是世界上仅存的两个有着最悠久又没历史间断的民族，都历经磨难。在第二次世界大战中，几百万的中国人被日本人夺去了生命，同样，六百万的犹太人被德国人夺去了生命。因为这些悲惨的遭遇，因为犹太人是受害者，所以很多美国的犹太人就积极参与政事，以保证屠杀犹太人的事件不再会在以色列国家和犹太人民身上重演。就这种精神，犹太人，就象中国人，同样提倡容忍。你知道，我在中国学到的东西之一，是我去过那么多的国家，就中国这个国家没有迫害过犹太人的历史，这点真的很特别，尤其是对我们犹太人来说，因为其他国家都没有做到，特别是欧洲的国家。

Y: That's probably why the Israeli government turned out to be one of the few countries that accepted the People's Republic of China in the early days of our founding. The Labor Party in Israel developed a very friendly policy towards China. My next question is how many Jews are there in America.

杨：也许正因为这个原因以色列政府在中华人民共和国草创之际就承认了中国，成为最早承认中国的少数几个国家之一。以色列劳工党发展了一个对中国非常友好的政策。我的下一个问题是，在美国有多少是犹太人呢？

J: Approximately three million.

J：大约三百万人。

Y: Harley, when we talk about the Jewish people in America, we say they are rich, they control the media and they control the banks. Do you accept this as true?

杨：哈利，当我们提起美国犹太人的时候，我们常说他们有钱，他们控制美国的媒体和银行。你认为是这样的吗？

H: No, if I may be so blunt. If you look at the people who are really in the position to control the banks and media, you see Jews represented like you would see Italian Americans, Greek Americans. I think people tend to focus on individual Jews. If there are Jews who have very high positions in the media or in banking, they are doing it as individuals who happen to be Jewish. They are not doing it as part of some groups. We are doing it as individuals because our culture has established that you work hard and you focus on education.　　

H：恕我直言，我不这样认为。如果你观测那些真正有能力控制银行和媒体的人，你会看到美国的犹太人和那些美国的意大利人、希腊人是一样的。我认为人们倾向于把注意力集中到犹太人身上。如果有犹太人在银行和媒体行业中职位很高，但他们也只代表个人，只是碰巧是犹太籍的人而已，他们并不代表一个团体来占领要职。我们个人的努力是因为我们的文化使然：勤奋工作，注重教育。

Y: In a highly commercial society like the United States, if you control the media, that automatically means you will influence the perception of public opinion. When it comes to the Middle East issue, some of the Arabian minority groups in America fear that the opinion of the American society has been somehow shaped by your people because of your financial power, your wealth and your control of the media. Do you agree?

杨：在类似美国这样一个高度商业化的社会里，如果你控制了媒体，自然就意味着你也控制了社会的意识导向。当中东问题产生后，一些美国的阿拉伯少数民族担心美国社会的舆论受到你们犹太人的影响，因为你们有经济实力、有财富和媒体受你们的控制。你同意这个说法吗？

H: If anything, I think the media is not balanced enough in the Middle East. I think we are often given distorted pictures. This is what we see around the world. For one, let's define Zionism. Zionism has somehow gotten a negative image. To me, Zionism simply means that Jews have a right to their homeland and the Middle East.

H：就算有这种说法，我认为媒体在中东地区是不太平衡的。我想我们常常得到歪曲的報道，然而正是通过這些歪曲了的报道我們來了解整個世界的。举个例子，我们来解释犹太复国运动这个名词，这个名词本身已经变成贬义词了，可对我来说，犹太复国运动就是指犹太人有权回到中东的祖国去，很简单。

J: Look at what's portrayed in American media. They are real-life and factual pictures and stories. Look at the Middle East. You would portray Israel and you compare it to the rest of the Middle East. The fact that Israel is portrayed in a positive light, not because of the Jewish press, or Jewish-run press, as you are suggesting, but because that's the factual scene. But on the other hand, recently many Jewish communities suggest that they boycott the Los Angeles Times and New York Times, which are the top newspapers in the country, because of their coverage on Israel which they think leans more towards the Palestinians.

J：我们来看看美国媒体是怎么报道的吧，都是真实的故事和写照。再看看中东。如果你想报道以色列你最起码会和中东的其他国家做比较。美国之所以对以色列的报道会是正面的，不是因为犹太人的新闻炒作，或者犹太籍人士的鼓吹，象你刚才谈得到的，而是事实如此。当然从其他角度来说，最近有很多犹太团体联合建议共同抵制美国最大的报纸之一的洛山矶时报和纽约时报，因为这些报纸在报道以色列的时候倾向于巴勒斯坦人的立场。

Y: How do you estimate the influence of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee? This seems to be the most influential organization that represents the interests of Jews in America.

杨：你是怎么估计美以公共事务委员会（简称AIPAC）的影响力的？这个组织好象是美国最有影响的、代表犹太人利益的组织。

J: Extremely influential, probably the most successful lobbying groups in America, one that's being emulated by Muslims and Chinese amongst others. I think it's effective because Americans have been supportive of that policy. If you look at the support that Israel gets today, from Christian communities in America, if you combine Christian community support of Israel with Israeli support, how hard is it for a lobbyings groups such as AIPAC to be successful in the Senate? It's pretty easy.　

J：他们极其有影响力，可能是美国最有影响力的(在议会外为影响议员投票而进行的)游说组织，现在穆斯林人、中国人和其他人都在仿效他们。我认为之所以有效是因为美国大众一直都在支持这项政策。你调查一下目前以色列在美国基督教团体所得到的支持，如果你把基督教团体对以色列的支持加上以色列人本身的支持，要AIPAC这样的游说组织去获得美国议会的支持有多难呢？太容易了。　　

Y: What are the most fundamental values of the Jewish religion?

杨：犹太教最基本的价值观是什么？　

H: One that comes to mind is that we judge people more by their deeds than their words. For example, in Catholic religion, you can say something and you can ask for forgiveness, or you go to confession on Sunday. If I understand it correctly, it tends to forgive on the basis of your words. In the Jewish religion, we focus more on deeds than words.

H:我脑子里闪出的第一条答案是：判断人的时候要注重人的行为而不是人的言语。举天主教信仰的例子来说，你可以在说话冒犯人之后请求原谅，或星期天上教堂时求得神的宽恕。如果我这样的理解是正确的话，这种饶恕仅停留在言辞之间。而犹太教，我们重点是看行为，超过语言。

J: Education, education, education! That's what our tome is all about.　　

J：教育，教育，还是教育。这是我们文化渊源之所在。

Y: You mentioned the WWII, but why were Jews hated and persecuted in many parts of the world before and after the WWII, like what was portrayed in Schindler's List?　　

杨：刚才你谈到第二次世界大战。但正如(电影)《辛德勒的名单》所描绘的，为什么犹太人在二战以前和以后都在世界各地遭受仇视和迫害呢？

H: I think there are two reasons. For one thing...　　

H：我认为这有两种因素。一种是…

Y: Jealousy? 　　

杨：是妒嫉吗？

H: Right, jealousy! Thank you for saying that. I think...　　

H：对，是妒嫉，谢谢你替我表达了。我认为…

Y: You don't think there's anything wrong with, say, the ways Jews do business around the world...?

杨：你不认为有些事情出了错吗，比如说，犹太人在世界上做生意的手段啊之类的…？

J: I don't think it's that shocking. I mean, what wrong did the Jews do in Spain? What wrong did they do to the Catholic Church? What wrong did they do in Poland? One of the biggest lies ever perpetrated on the Jews was done by the largest religion in the world, which is the Catholic religion. The Catholics blame the Jews for killing Jesus Christ. Children were taught in school that Jews killed Jesus Christ, not that Jews were rich, not that Jews have long noses, not that Jews should be hated ?they killed their God!　　

J：我不认为有那么利害。我说啊，犹太人在西班牙到底做错了什么？他们哪里得罪了天主教堂？他们在波兰又怎么了？犹太人被强加的最大的罪名之一来自于世界上最大的宗教组织，即天主教。　　天主教徒们指责犹太人杀害了耶稣基督。孩子们从小就在学校里受到灌输，说是犹太人杀死了耶稣基督，并没有说是犹太人有钱，犹太人有长鼻子，犹太人应该被仇视的。是犹太人杀死了他们的上帝！

H: I think the reason why Jews are targets is that they are easy targets. People like to blame. Hitler was looking to take power. If you look historically, people who blame others were projecting what they want to do. Hitler blamed the Jews for being powerful when he himself wanted to take power in Germany. We were a defenseless group. We didn't have a military force to defend ourselves. We were very easy targets. 　　

H：我认为犹太人成为靶子的原因是因为他们太容易对付了。人们喜欢指责。希特勒想独揽大权。如果从历史的角度来看，那些指责人的人是在贼喊抓贼。希特勒谴责犹太人太有实力了，其实他自己是在想把德国的权力握在手中。犹太人其实是没有抵抗能力的团体，我们连自卫的军队都没有，所以我们是一个很容易对付的目标。

J: Look, Harley, those are explanations that occurred later in history. The fact is that the Catholic Church blamed us for killing their God and from that emanated blame, hatred and persecution. When you go back in history, you cannot overlook that. There was a time Jews lived amongst Muslims quite comfortably, without any discrimination or anti-Semitism. But they could not live in Europe after the Catholic Church's doctrine prevailed.

J：嗨，哈利，你刚才的解释其实是近代才出现的理论。事实上是那些天主教堂谴责我们杀害了他们的神，因此埋下这仇恨的果子，导致了仇视和迫害。你回头看历史，这一点你是没法忽略的。历史上曾经有过犹太人与穆斯林人相处融洽的时期，没有歧视也没有所谓反犹情结。然而当天主教教条在欧洲盛行之后，犹太人在欧洲就没有了栖身之处。

Y: Are there any major organizations that coordinated efforts worldwide to bring former Nazi officers to justice? Do you think you have eliminated all the former Nazi officers scattered around the world, particularly those in Latin America?　　

杨：你们有没有主要的机构组织负责联合世界各地的分支机构，将以前的纳粹分子抓来审判？你认为犹太人已经把所有散落世界各地的纳粹分子，特别是逃到拉丁美洲的纳粹分子，都消除了吗？

J: Most likely those that are left are quite aged right now and will not be around much longer, thank goodness.　　

J：那些存留的纳粹分子应该已经非常衰老、活不多久了，真是谢天谢地。

H: I believe that as a Jew, anyone who's the victim of racism or who has been murdered or fell victim to genocide because of his race or religion or nationality, should be defended. I personally thank President Clinton when he went to the aid for the Muslims in Kosovo, because I think they were victims of the Serbs. And I was saying this as a human being, and as a Jew who has a family that suffered in the holocaust, I believe my mission in life is to care for everyone who's the victim of this. So I think it's important that we stand up for all people - Chinese who were victims in WWII to the Japanese - for anyone around the world - the Tutsis who were slaughtered by the Hutu in Rwanda. And this list goes on. I think the Jewish people feel that if the memory of the holocaust is to have any meaning for the future, it is that we stand up for all people, all human beings who have suffered. That's an important principle .　　　

H：我认为作为一个犹太人，对因为种族、信仰和国家的原因而成为民族歧视的受害者、种族灭绝的被谋杀者或受害者，我们都应该捍卫他们。我个人就非常感谢克林顿总统派兵保护科所夫的穆斯林人，因为我认为他们是塞尔维亚人的牺牲品。我这样阐明自己的观点是因为我是个人，也是一个家庭成员受过希特勒大屠杀的犹太人。我认为我人生的目的就是为了关心每一位这样的受害者。所以我主张大家要集体为所有的人伸张正义－中国人是二战时期日本人的牺牲品－我们要为全世界的人伸张正义－在卢旺达，图西人被胡图人屠杀，而类似的例子不胜靡举。我想，如果犹太人感到希特勒的大屠杀事件对今后有任何意义的话，那就是我们应该为所有的人，所有受凌辱的人主持正义，这是一项非常重要的原则。